Big Frames for big frames. Part 1

This section comes from a question I posed on the Serotta forum...ok, the only bike forum I hang out on. The topic was "Big Frames for the big". If you are like me you have been disappointed in the fact that it just isn't easy to find frames for people our size so we almost always have to go custom. Custom is nice, don't get me wrong. But it would be nice to have more options.

I've left out a few posts that wandered off topic. I almost left out the weight lifting divergence by my friend Roy Munson, but then realized that many responses that followed tied the two topics together so I left it in.

William
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A BIG question for the frame builders on the forum...
What do you take into consideration when building a frame for large, aggressive, powerful riders? Material, tubing, angles, lugged vs. tig welded?

So far, the "production" bikes that I've ridden I've turned into wet noodles. I think that they just take the same tubing and geometry and expanded it out to make a larger bike. Not really taking too much consideration for the larger forces that could likely be applied by larger, more powerful riders.
My first custom frame was a disappointment in the beginning only because (in hindsight) I don't feel that the builder took me too seriously about what kind of forces I know I can generate when laying down the power. The second time around was better but I was pretty turned off by the experience by that point. Ben & Co, did a fine job and I felt like they took me seriously in the frame they built for me. I will be honest and say that there is a small amount of dead feel (slight lack of crispness) in the handling that I like, but that might just be a trade off to get the stiffness I need in the BB...I don't know.

Why do I ask?
My wife is softening on the issue of getting another custom built for me. She still wants me to keep costs down as much as possible though. I had been looking around for used frames, but honestly, for what I need, there is practically nothing out there. So, with the advances in tubing and materials, I would like to be (in the words of DWF) edumacated on what the frame builder POV is on building frames for the likes of me and similar ilk out in the world.

Thank you in advance!

William
 
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posted by Too Tall
 
Willm, we are cut from similar cloth and you do pay a price for being uh...special but only in as much that effort required to make a great ride is high and meebbe rarified. I had two customs that ARE junk (name withheld cause it makes my mad) and one really great one (ClarkKent) before Serotta built my Ti Legend...heaven.

Kelly B. and Smiley teamed to design/build what is one of the finest custom Ti rigs for a tall guy EVER. No, you don't have to give up any "crispness" or lively feel if you are careful with design. My next move will no doubt be a custom CSI. Aside from Serotta I have confidence a guy like Matt Barkley and Dario P. could do you right.

If you are ever in my neck-o-the-woods. BYO saddle and I'll fit you onto my Legend. I'll need the keys to your Porsche and fingerprints first
 
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Posted by William
 
Issue numba two:

Do you think longer crank length has much of an impact on the BB? Just like when your trying to loosen a bolt with a socket wrench and it's stuck, put a breaker bar on it to increase the leverage to break it free. In comparing crank length of say 172.5 or 175 to 180mm, do you think there are differences in the forces that are applied that would be large enough that they should be taken into consideration?


William
 
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Posted by William
 
>>Quote:

Kelly B. and Smiley teamed to design/build what is one of the finest custom Ti rigs for a tall guy EVER. No, you don't have to give up any "crispness" or lively feel if you are careful with design.


Interesting, I always thought that I would pretty much have to stick with Steel. I like steel. But I did always wonder what all the hub-bub about Ti was. That hearting to hear, I like a snappy/crisp handling ride and thought that I might have to give it up to get proper sizing.


>>Quote:

If you are ever in my neck-o-the-woods. BYO saddle and I'll fit you onto my Legend. I'll need the keys to your Porsche and fingerprints first>>


I might take you up on that. And believe me, if there was a Porsche in the family, my wife wouldn't let me near it . How about the keys to my Dodge and a paw print from our Basset Hound?


William
 
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Posted by Too Tall
 
Basset hounds rul...bring him. No MiniVans.

Yeah of course, longer lever arms more tangentinal force..also, my impression and gut feeling is that TALL riders issues with frame flex are affected more by their actual height above the BB esp. out of the saddle rather than pedaling forces measure from hips down.

I picked Ti becuase of two things. Ben claimed he could build a Ti bike that I'd love eg. stiff and durability. Cha Ching! When I hop on my (steel) SLX Clark Kent the similarities are scary. Keep in mind the genius of Kelly and Co. with materials design. If you (yah big ape) asked for a super light weight Ti bike that sprints well he might ask you to reconsider. My Ti frame is no featherweight. Rigged out with uberwheels and common DA stuff it's something like 21lbs....unless ZAP has filled the seattube with lead shot again.
 
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Posted by Aneida Ride:
 
In my case, Serotta oversized the tubing and used the Rapid Tour
chain stays. Shorter top tube. Bike is perfect.

I have little doubt that Serotta specializes in Clysdale Legends and can build
the frame of you dreams. But Garbage in, Garbage out. Kelly needs to know
how you want this puppy to ride.
 
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posted by William
 
>>Quote:

Yeah of course, longer lever arms more tangentinal force..also, my impression and gut feeling is that TALL riders issues with frame flex are affected more by their actual height above the BB esp. out of the saddle rather than pedaling forces measure from hips down.


I have the feeling that you're spot-on. I know that when I'm out of the saddle sprinting balls to the walls is when if feel the most "squish" in a frame. I could make that old Fuji Roubaix flex enough to get it to shift gears by itself...if spokes didn't start breaking first. I think where I start treading into that "freak-O-nature" range is my body make-up. I'm very tall, but I also carry a lot of muscle mass, especially my lower body. I'm built like a tree trunk. During the off season my weight training program includes leg presses where I'm working up to 1,100+ lbs. for reps (spinning before & after with lots of stretching in between). I love making the roid boys shake their heads. The point being (and I hate sounding like I'm pulling my own chain) that with my sprinting style and longer cranks, I know I'm creating some crazy forces on the frame that most bikes don't encounter, even big ones.



>>Quote:

I have little doubt that Serotta specializes in Clysdale Legends and can build
the frame of you dreams. But Garbage in, Garbage out. Kelly needs to know
how you want this puppy to ride>>


I don't think my first custom builder believed me...and I broke it for him. The second one faired better but as I said before, I was pretty disgusted by that point. With the CSI I had built, I have a feeling that my LBS thought they knew what I needed better than I did. Maybe all the info didn't make through the middle man? Maybe it did? Anyway, don't get me wrong, I do really like it. It has a smooth and true, solid ride. Great on long rides. It just lacks some of the quick handling characteristics I like in a bike. I'm willing to let Serotta & co. try again. I believe To Tall knows of what he speaks and his word is worth considering. If I do, I would prefer to work directly with them instead of going through a middle man again.


William
 
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Posted by Aneida Ride:

William,

If Serotta can't build the appropiate frame, at least they will tell you.

You have really no option, but to call Serotta and chat with Kelly,
their chief designer. He'll give ya the scoop.

Serotta used to offer a supersized Tubing. I suspect it was for guys
like you.

My Serotta is a 64 Rapid Tour Legend. If you weigh between 220 and
270 it should easliy accomodate you. You are welcome to demo it.

NH,

They do make 100 lb plates.


Posted by William:

>>Quote:
Is that some special Gold's Gym type machine, or does your gym have larger than 45lb plates? >>>


The old gym that I went to had an old custom built machine that I could put one 100lbs plate and eight 45's on each side. They only had two 100lbs plates which is why I had to use so many 45's. Then I would pile about five more 45's on top of the sled. The gym I'm at now has plenty of 100's.



>>Quote:
My Serotta is a 64 Rapid Tour Legend. If you weigh between 220 and
270 it should easliy accomodate you. You are welcome to demo it.>>

I weigh in at 255-260 and stand 6', 6" tall. Thanks, the offer is very much appreciated.
I think that I fall into the part of the bell curve that is "experimental" for most frame builders. I could be wrong but that's the feeling I get after asking around a bit. I'm sure Serotta can do it as well as a few other builders. Like you said, good communication is key.
BION, I was actually told by one builder that guys like me shouldn't ride. He was probably kidding but he kept a pretty serious poker face.


William the Big Ape

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Posted by Smiley:

William , when we built the Legend Ti for Too Tall we built it with one design goal , NO BB FLEX and this bike stands today as an example of what Serotta can do. It was built with non stock very oversized tubes, I saw the tandems serotta built and this frame has these tubes in the main traingle. I think you'll have to wait for these tubes to be available as Needs Help was awiting the shipment of something in this range. If enough of you BIG guys place orders with Serotta they will get these gonzo tubes in. Too Tall is a machine and if anybody can flex a frame using 180 mm cranks with his leverage ...I'd bet on the Big guy every time. Fact is too Tall could probably ride with 190 mm cranks if someone made them. Best of luck in your quest and your better served in talking to the factory or like Too Tall did see Serotta ( Ben ) and challenge him to build you a no flex frame.

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Posted by Aneida Ride:

Gorilla
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William.

I'm 6'4 about 245 right now. I should be at 225. I have riden this frame
at 250+. So it will easily take your weight. I see you reside in RI.
Perhaps we could both drive and meet halfway ? This way you could
offer Kelly some specific feeback on one particular large beefy frame.
I think this would provide Kelly with valuable insight.

My LBS guru has fitted numerous big/tall guys. One in particular was a NFL
or NBA monster. 6'6 to 6'8 and 275 Lb, The First thing Rick did was to
call the factory and ask if Serotta could build a machine for this guy.
The factory replied "sure" . He purchase a CIII.

The real problem was finding someone to test ride it before delivery.

Visit the Serotta Photo gallery and the 2003 open house gallery.
About 6 picts in, there is one of Kelly and my bike. Note the
beefed up chain stays.

I understand your predicament. I could not find a "balll park" bike
to demo either and had to take a leap of faith. Serotta got it spot on.
I suspect that you will take a 65 at least. I've seen a 65/66 Ottrott
( also fitted by Rick ) at the Serotta Grand opening. It looked just
fine.


William, I hope this helps,
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Posted by Peter:

William,

The only and BEST way to get it right is to order ANOTHER Serotta. You need to tell them, "I own a frame with serial number "x". Look up the specs. This is what I like about it (fill in the blank). This is what I don't like (fill in the blank). And this is how I want my new frame to ride, compared to my existing frame."

You absolutely, positively need your existing frame specs to provide a frame of reference for comparison with the qualities you desire in your new frame. That's why you should stay with Serotta-they'll have the specs of the existing frame and you'll both be speaking the same language. You can pick many other qualified builders out there but you'll be practically starting out at ground zero again if you choose that route.
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Posted by Needs Help:

Peter,

If a builder screws up your first frame, then order another one from him because then he has a better frame of reference? That could get expensive.
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Posted By Aneida Ride:

Nh,

William did not indicate that Serotta screwed up. Actually, he claimed they
did a "fine job". He seems very pleased with this iteration.

The real question is. Currently, what builder has the highest
probability of creating William's perfect frame ?
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Posted by Bruce H.:

I am riding a stock steel Rapid Tour. I am 6'2" and about 240 right now. (Stress induced wt. gain) I have put over 4,000 miles on it and I work the pedals hard (speedplay zeros).
I have had no problems to date and absolutely love riding this bike.
Bruce H. [who leg presses a hefty 220 lbs on my best day!]

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Posted by Too Tall:

Y'all quit trying to start a big guy war. Don't you know...us "freaks" are at peace. Willms leg pressing ability is too cool. We are very different smokes. If we were on a team together I'd be the guy who is placed second to last in the sprint line and he'd be the closer.

Peter, surprisingly Serotta and Co. might not retain specs. for all their bikes made. At least, this was my experiance when calling regards a used frame made in (93?).

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Posted by Roy Munson:

I hate to break this to you guys, but being big and having gym lifts does NOT make one a great sprinter. How many bozo's do you meet who think because they go to the gym and are heavy that they would tear the leg's of everyone in a sprint. Weightlifting strength has very little transference (if that's a word) to the bike. As an off-season training supplement, weight lifting is not bad, but on the bike strength is best done on the bike. Training the legs in the gym during a cycling season is ridiculous if you want to be a good cyclist.

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Posted by William:

>>>Quote:
If a builder screws up your first frame, then order another one from him because then he has a better frame of reference? That could get expensive. >>>


AR is correct. Serotta did a good job on the frame I recieved. I just don't think it's exactly what I asked for. I place more of the onus on the lbs than Serotta. We had some differences on what I wanted and what they felt I needed. Bottom line, at this point I can't prove it either way.



>>>Quote:
Y'all quit trying to start a big guy war. Don't you know...us "freaks" are at peace.>>>


Yeah, us big freaky guys are usually pretty laid back....but the "Walk sofltly and carry a big stick" rule usually applies here.

HEY ROY!! YOU CALLING ME BOZO MAN??!!! ;-)

>>Quote:
I hate to break this to you guys, but being big and having gym lifts does NOT make one a great sprinter. How many bozo's do you meet who think because they go to the gym and are heavy that they would tear the leg's of everyone in a sprint. Weightlifting strength has very little transference (if that's a word) to the bike. As an off-season training supplement, weight lifting is not bad, but on the bike strength is best done on the bike. Training the legs in the gym during a cycling season is ridiculous if you want to be a good cyclist. >>>

No one claimed that having big lifts makes you a good sprinter. Go back and read. The only reason I brought up the lifting was to illustrate that I can create some very heavy forces on a frame and that should be taken into consideration when a chosen builder is trying to build me one. As I said, my first custom builder didn't believe me and I broke the frame for him.

Now, lifting is part of my off-season training and I spin before, strectch in between sets, and spin after to keep my muscles loose and add that cycling specific muscle memory to the mix. I don't advocate this for anyone but my self. Does it work for sprinting ability? It works for me.



>>Quote:
I see you reside in RI.
Perhaps we could both drive and meet halfway ? This way you could
offer Kelly some specific feeback on one particular large beefy frame.
I think this would provide Kelly with valuable insight.>>>


AR, I might have to take you up on the offer.


William (The ape lifting sprinter)
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Posted by Roy Munson:

>>>Quote:
The only reason I brought up the lifting was to illustrate that I can create some very heavy forces on a frame and that should be taken into consideration when a chosen builder is trying to build me one. As I said, my first custom builder didn't believe me and I broke the frame for him.>>>


Are you lifting the frame or riding it? Again, what difference does weightlifting have on riding?

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Posted by flydhest:

Roy,

It has a lot to do with it. Now . . . I won't argue that he who can press the most sprints the best. Far from it. In fact, I would look at the two separately, find me someone who has really strong legs but isn't all that fast in a sprint, and I'll probably show you someone who hurts frames. Really good sprinting is often about using the bike correctly to transfer your strength to going forward---fast. If you have a lot of strength and aren't the fastest sprinter, the effort is likely going somewhere. This is a good recipe for broken frames.

I don't know anything at all about William. Some strong guys who have smooth strokes break frames just from the forces doing their things. Others break frames due to a less than great pedal stroke that can torque the hell out of a frame.
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Posted by Aneida Ride:

Hey Big Galooth,

Demo ride is available any time. My Pleasure.

Send me a E-mail or PM.

Finding the right LBS/Fitter is the Key. The fitter needs to accurately
present you to Serotta. Garbage in = Garbage out.

Good Luck and Best Regards,

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Posted by zap:

Weight lifting is one of the best ways to gain strength for cycling. Heavy weights should only be done in the off season and done in conjunction with cycling after weights reaps maximum benefits. Keep it up William!

Typically you will lose peak strength as the cycling season progresses, but you are getting fitter and losing weight as your speed improves. I had my best cycling season after I was able to squat 325 lbs.

Too Tall is correct in that the riders height needs to be factored in. IMO, the taller you are, the stronger the frame needs to be. For example, a rider that's 6'7" , weighs 205lbs will need a stronger frame than a rider equally talented thats 6'0" and weighs the same (205lbs).
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Posted by Roy Munson:

Weight lifting is one of the best ways to build strength for cycling. For the inexperienced cyclist, yes. For a seasoned cyclist, not the case. Strength is best built on the bike.

I think height is important because as the bike gets bigger, the tubes get longer. I could very likely be wrong, but I think it's an accurate statement.
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Posted by zap:

It works for me and many others who have plenty of experience including USCF racing. I've been cycling for 18 years and started weight training when I got involved in a national decathlon training program in Canada some 27 years ago. Kept it up when I competed in Track events and Biathlons (yes, the real one w/rifles).

Plenty of Pro's use weight training in the off season as well.

Weight training is also fun and helps burn a few extra calories during the off season. The additional benefit of weight training is that it helps strengthen bones.

Roy. Try it. You might like it.
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Posted by Roy Munson:

I was a competitive powerlifter, so I know a tad about weight lifting, which is why I don't use weight training for my legs. None of those little knee bend squats either - deep, full squats. Cat 2 USCF racer as well. Lifting is FAR more damaging to muscles than cycling, so it takes forever to recover. Far better results using on the bike resistance training. You should try it, you might like it.

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Posted by zap:

I agree with you that little knee bends are useless. Ditto on weights causing more muscle damage, hence weights in the off season.

Yes, resistance training on the bike is an important training method as well. As are intervals, etc.... I do it all but could probably do with more interval training during the season.

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Posted by William:

Well Roy,
Then you would also know that the body will only adapt to the stress that is applied to it. Power is what propels you forward on every pedal stroke. Power is what moves you up the hill, power is what moves you to the line in all out balls-to-the-walls sprints. The more power you can develop, the easier it is to propel your weight forward. If all you do is ride the bike, then you adapt to carrying your body weight on the bike. If you adapt to carrying your body weight + the strength you've built with weight training, moving just your body weight becomes easier.

You would also know that 1,100 lbs on a leg press is allot different then trying to squat that same amount. A lot less stress on the joints, back and knees since the press carries a portion of the weight. I don't do squats myself due to a back injury when I was rowing competitivley. I have no joint problems at all. Well, I do on my hands but that's from full contaqct stickfighting, not lifting.

Weight training is called for by Eddie B., and he's not just refering to track riders either. I would say that the majority of pro cyclists use some form of weight training in the off-season. Every major sport has been improved by better training involving weight training. With that said, you have to know how to apply it for whatever sport you're involved with. I have been involved in competitve sports all my life and I know what works for me. I'm a power rider and devlop lower body strength easily. The reason why I can sprint and climb well for somone my size is because of my power training and how I apply it for cycling. I will clarify the sprinting part, I'm not talking about that jack-rabbit quickness to get up to speed. I'm more of a drag racer with a long wind-up. With the big gears, I'll start my sprint much farther out than most people, I have the power and the spinning ability to wind it up and hold top speed longer than most people. When most sprinters try to come around, there's nothing left because I've already spun them out. I've won and placed enough to claissify it as successful for me.
I'm also a power climber. Sit in the saddle and power up. I know that the weight training is helping to carry my 255-260 lbs arse up the hill. Pressing for reps in the off-season makes it a heck of a lot eaiser. Of course you have to take into consideration that your training for cycling, not power lifting or body building. And, you still have to work on spinning to stay on top of the gears. It's not just about mashing strength.
Not much more I can say. I know hitting the weights helps me. Many other elite level coaches call for it as well. If you don't need it, more power to you. But trying to use a blanket statement that,...

"Weight lifting is one of the best ways to build strength for cycling. For the inexperienced cyclist, yes. For a seasoned cyclist, not the case".

...sounds to me like an your own opinion. Of course, that's just MY opinion. I think we all know the old saying about opinions. But look at most elite level training programs and you will certainly find weight training as a part of them.

Bottom line, I know what works for me.


William
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Posted by William:

>>>Quote:
Hey Big Galooth,

Demo ride is available any time. My Pleasure.

Send me a E-mail or PM.



AR,>>>
Again,
Thank you very much, and I'll be in touch.


William (Grape Ape)

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Posted by Djg:

Isn't Lennard Zinn supposed to specialize in this sort of thing?
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I've never had one of his bikes, so I'm going by rep only, but he's about your height and a former US team member and I believe he's especially interested in (and experienced at) building frames for larger/taller riders. It might be worth talking to him.