Big Frames for big frames. Part 2

cont.....

Posted by William:

I had never seen a Zinn up close other than a competitors TT bike at the TT nats in Seattle (1995 I think). It was a consideration, Mr. Zinn sent me all the lit and I spoke with him over the phone once about possibly building one for me. I knew a number of racers that had Serottas and liked them. Also the lbs that I went to convinced me that Serotta could make what I needed. So, in the end...



On frames:

This weekend my wife asked me to get her bike out of storage and clean it up (WOO-HOO!!). We picked up a barely used105 equipped, Specialized Allez for her a number of years ago. It was on sale, the price was right, and it fit her. When my bike was done up for team colors I threw hers in too. I cleaned this puppy up, waxed it and put new tubes and tires on it and it looks brand spanking new. Looking at it struck me as to how well we represent the extremes of the Bell curve. I'm riding a 63 and I still have roughly 23 cm of post showing (top of lug to top of saddle). My wifes bike is has a 43 cm ST with about 16 cm of post showing. Her TT slopes down a bit and and it's almost the same height as the back tire. Tiny, tiny, tiny.

It could be good for me that she's getting back into riding...maybe she'll be more likely to ok the custom? Then again, she'll be taking up more disposable income for her gear... Nah! It's all good!

"Hey William, how the heck do you two....."

Ah, ah, ah!! I don't want to hear any of that!!!

William
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Posted by Sbash:

Hey William!

Have you thought of a Merckx MX Leader if they have one in your size. I'am just a little wimpy dude of 210/215 lbs and right now riding a 60cm Merckx ALU Team and one of the best bikes i have ridden. It is heavy (22lbs) but stout & stable, feels a lot lighter than that and hauls up hills. You might ask the Jerk what he thinks. I will either get a MX Leader or have Dave Kirk build something similar next. I emailed Dave Kirk awhile back and he is the man for this.

SB
PS: I think William, Too Tall, and Ahneida Ride should lead Lance on flat stages. There job, nobody gets by except Lance. Could you imagine those 3 monsters 3 across leading the way.

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Posted by William:

>>>Quote:
Have you thought of a Merckx MX Leader if they have one in your size. I'am just a little wimpy dude of 210/215 lbs and right now riding a 60cm Merckx ALU Team and one of the best bikes i have ridden. It is heavy (22lbs) but stout & stable, feels a lot lighter than that and hauls up hills. You might ask the Jerk what he thinks. I will either get a MX Leader or have Dave Kirk build something similar next. I emailed Dave Kirk awhile back and he is the man for this. >>>


Sbash,

I've had a few others suggest the MX as well. I haven't looked into them to much yet. I had a team mate who rode an MX and he always said he loved it as well. Because of our size diffrences I never got to try it out.

I don't know too much about Mr. Kirks rides. He seems to be highly recomended. I was hoping he would weigh in on this issue as well.

William

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Posted by William:

>>Quote:
PS: I think William, Too Tall, and Ahneida Ride should lead Lance on flat stages. There job, nobody gets by except Lance. Could you imagine those 3 monsters 3 across leading the way. >>>

A line from the movie Independance Day comes to mind here:

"All right gentleman....let's PLOW the road!!"



William

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Posted by Too Tall:

ROTFLMAO
We don't need no steeeenkin draft.

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Posted by Aneida Ride:

Have to agree with William on this one.

Seems like Uncle William is riding a 63. This seems small, especially for
William's size and especially since William perfers to sit on hills. Methinks
that a 64 or 65 would better suit him.

With a larger frame (64 ), I can sit on hills while others are standing.
This is a distinct advantage.

I still think that Dbrk is right. Fist full of post showing. If not,
then consider a larger frame. I see too many bigger guys on
60 or so frames. And they think the frame fits them !!!!

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Posted by William:

Two fists full of Fury....
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>>Quote:
Seems like Uncle William is riding a 63. This seems small, especially for
William's size and especially since William perfers to sit on hills. Methinks
that a 64 or 65 would better suit him.

With a larger frame (64 ), I can sit on hills while others are standing.
This is a distinct advantage.

I still think that Dbrk is right. Fist full of post showing. If not,
then consider a larger frame. I see too many bigger guys on
60 or so frames. And they think the frame fits them !!!! >>>


Gee, thanks AR, make feel like I got reamed even more than I thought I did

I can grab almost two fists of post in my grubby lil'big hands. I've always thought this thing had a bit of post showing. But hey, I thought they knew how to use that Serotta size cycle.

Too many years, and living across the country from where I got it likely counts out any recourse on the matter.

I'm going to go ride it.....INTO THE BAY!!!

William

Just kidding. But it does tick me off.

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Posted by Aneida Ride:

Two Fistfulls ???
------------------------------------------------------------------------
WOW !!!

Dat's a lot ! My fitter suggested a 65. I talked him down to a 64.
Perhaps for sprinting a smaller frame is of benefit ? I dunno.
But from a comfort perspective, that is like me on a 60.

Isn't that constant bent over position uncomfortable and perhaps
contributing to back issues ?

Personally, I think a 66 is closer to reality.

I wonder what size Smiley stuck T**2 with ?

63 ? William, get another fitter !!!!!!

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Posted by William:

Ahhhh. I feel much better after sprint intervals.


>>>Quote:
Perhaps for sprinting a smaller frame is of benefit ? >>>

That could be a possibility. A smaller triangle should be stronger I would think. One of the things I made clear (at least I thought) was that sprinting (Psuedo/power sprinting if you like) and crit racing was my forte, but I still road raced. I know the type of power I can lay down and I let them know.



>>>Quote:
Isn't that constant bent over position uncomfortable and perhaps
contributing to back issues ? >>>

Certainly is possible. Let's take a looksee at some random measurements:

ST, C2C is 63cm
TT, C2C is 63cm
Saddle height is 87cm
Saddle (nose) to handlebar reach is 65cm
Saddle height over bars is about 13cm
Stem length is 120
Angle. level/horizontal (zero?)
Bar width is 44cm

Impressions anyone?


>>Quote:
I wonder what size Smiley stuck T**2 with ? >>

Me Too? What's the magic number big 2T?


>>Quote:
63 ? William, get another fitter !!!!!! >>

Grrrrrr! Let me clarify again for every one out there. I don't have a problem with Serotta directly. The frames I recieved where incredibly nice. I can't complain about the customer service afterward. The first frame got damaged in shipping (cosmetic), they gave me a second one at no charge (and a free Serotta jersey). It looks like I have a problem with the folks who represent/present Serotta to the public (the bike shop/Serotta rep). I may have been fitted incorrectly and thus have a frame that is really, too small.
As I said before, if I decide to go with Serotta, I won't work with any middle men...I'M GOING STRAIGHT TO THE TOP AR!! THE TOP!!!

William

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Posted by Big Mac:

Big Will:

You are definitely on the right track but I do believe I may be able to provide some personal perspective. No I am not your size and perhaps not your strength but quite possibly a similar pedalling style/cadence. I am a relatively diminutive 6'2" 227lb and yes I do own a 64/61 Legend as well as a few lugged steel frames.

I do not believe you will find ANY stock frame that will appropriately meet both your size and strength/stiffness/durability needs. Aluminum and plastic is similarly a poor choice for your needs. Ti is similarly a poor choice with the lone exception of the Legend. Steel can be a very good choice however with some notable compromises albeit at considerable savings versus a Legend.

If you do choose a Legend, it of course will be big $$ but it is in my opinion a "lifetime" investment. I have over 80k miles on my Legend, it's as lively, stable and fun as its maiden ride. I do believe fork choice will be difficult, I use the discontinued F1. I have no real experience with Serotta's F2 but given its Ouzo origins I have very serious doubts about its performance under heavy, aggresive loads such as you and I. The recently introduced Reynolds Peloton is a vast improvement over the Pro in terms of torsional stiffness and feel but it still lags well behind the F1's feel and predictability. I would probably look at a TT Alpha Q or a custom steel fork if I were in your shoes.

I did spend nearly a month (1200+ miles in total) riding a friends Seven Axiom, he is very similar size as you, only 2" shorter. He is a recently retired NFL player of considerable strength and fitness, albeit a bit rougher cadence than I. His frame was custom designed 63/60, moderate sloping TT with stiffest tubes available to Seven at that time (I could be wrong but I have seen no indication Seven can provide larger diameter(stiffer) tubeset). That frame had so little torsional stiffness for its size that I had little trouble causing RD upshifting under moderately hard pedalling loads. That however was not the frames' biggest problem, it had a downright scary front-end stability/shimmy problem that I had not encountered since i had one of those ridiculously light steel Moulton/Fuso's from mid 80's. Nobody building Ti frames has Serotta's Legend tubes which is the only way to really build a frame suitable for your size. You need sufficient TT stiffness to mitigate shimmy/stability issues and fat enough DT and ST to provide sufficient BB stiffness under load. I would also request straight cs's on my Legend, in lieu of the swoopy "S" curve one's. Straight stays are a bit stiffer and your stays will likely be a bit on the long side at maybe 42.25 or more if you use a slack ST angle as I suspect is needed given your size. Longer stays also provide greater clearence for fatter tires which is generally a very good thing for big riders -- 25mm or fatter sewups, never leave home w/o'em. FWIW: my buddy gave his Seven to his little bro' after riding my Legend, he now has his own Legend. Until he rode mine he just had no clue how responsive and stable a Ti frame could be.

So if Legend is beyond your budget, steel can be a very fine choice. Understand however that steel has a somewhat finite life, particularly under the loads provided by you. I have had many steel frames over the years and have been relatively vigilent in maintaining mileage logs, never has one lasted 30k miles w/o a failure, NEVER! Now some were experimental/demo mistakes like my 2 Fuso's but most were custom lugged steel from a plethora of the world's most reknowned custom steel fabricators. A few broke at DT below HT lug, the vaunted "canopener" effect, a few more at base of ST and one at DT base just above BB. Most however failed at right cs, a few mm's behind BB lug, beginning with a crack that when left unchecked resulted in a full wrap-around fracture of cs tube. Most fortunately did not even result in a fall, some however did require a lengthy walk back to civilization.

The real choice for you, imo, is whether you are interested in the slightly smoother, far costlier but lifetime durability of a properly fitted Legend or a custom steel frame for 1/2 the cost, a minimum of 20k miles of servicabilty before a repair is required (if properly designed and built, of course) not to mention the wonderful ride and aesthetics of custom lugged steel. A CSi is certainly an option, as is a Sachs although those both seem like more 'boutique' choices given their relative cost/value. For 30-40% less $$ you could get a similarly beautifully crafted steel frame that will provide equal servicability, probably with far shorter wait. I have personally purchased 2 lugged steel frames in the last 4 years from 2 highly experienced and respected builders nearly half-way around the world from one another. Without any tubing input from me, they chose nearly identical tubesets, semi-custom drawn. In both cases, they used Deda 0.1 (aka Zero Uno) DT's, a vanadium-enriched steel alloy very similar to Columbus Nivacrom. What's unique about these tubes is not the alloy, it's the diameter. Deda provides a tapered(swaged) DT that's 32mm at HT and 35mm at BB, for reference sake a 'traditional' 531 steel DT was 28.6mm (1 1/8") OD. Deda stocks these in something like 0.8mm/0.6mm/0.8mm butting. They will however custom butt these tubes in one-off order if builder has an account with Deda, mine were butted 0.9/0.7/0.9, I was told they can draw as thick as 1.0mm ends if requested. The end result is a very firm BB, not too stiff, just very firm for my size, strength and usage. The TT used by my local builder was a Columbus sourced tube intended for a mtb DT but he was able to find appropriate lugs to fit the tubes OD w/o resorting to 1 1/8" HT or odd-sized seatpin. My custom italian built frame employed more custom drawn tubes throughout, all sourced from Deda using same steel alloy. The result in both cases is superb high-speed stabilty, firm yet resilient ride with proper torsional stiffness at pedals. No, I have not broken either frame but I have no reason to suspect these frames will not fail at somepoint around 25k mark. FWIW: the local bike is a fixed gear and the italian bike resides at my home in Italy which I am at approximately 10 weeks/yr.

Proper sizing is a whole separate issue, as others have noted I too would agree that a 63cm frame seems too small, especially if you're at 2 fists of seatpin. Now some builders will promote 'compact' frames as a means of improving torsional stiffness on large frames. Much like fat, round cs's, this is a REALLY bad idea attempting to compensate for inadequate tubing designs and poor engineering. A big rider will put greater load on seatpin binder, particularly if you're a seated, gear-grinder type which will eventually lead to seatpin failure or seatpin binder failure, either of which could lead to very serious injury. Get a bigger frame. Be sure when you are being fitted that you specify crank arm length and pedal choice. While I am 4" shorter than you -- just barely a fistful of seatpin exposed -- my ST is 1cm longer, measured c-c. Yes, I do have long pbh for my height, I do pedal toes down at bottom of stroke and I use relatively long 177.5 cranks which all contribute to my proper ST height.

If you do choose a Legend, it is possible your wait for frame build may be longer than most if proper tubes are not readily available. I do not know if they regularly stock largest diameter tubes or if these must be special ordered, in fact I believe Serotta has made a few changes to tube sourcing since I bought mine 5 1/2 years ago. My frame did take 2-3 weeks longer than was typical for a Legend per my LBS, maybe it was the paint (a very simple design w/o most decals) or perhaps it was the specially drawn tubes. I do know that at the time I owned a Cannondale Mtb and the DT on my Legend measured at BB was nearly identical OD as the massive Cannondale tubes, the TT on Legend, measured at forward end near HT, is larger diameter than the Cannondale TT. I have had my Legend over 60mph on local mountain descents w/o a single incidence of shimmy or similar stability concerns. These are the ultimate big guy bikes, ime.

The Merckx MXL is likely not built large enough for you, I fit the 63cm(largest size available) and its an absolute perfect fit for my size... and yes I have broken all 3 MXL's I have owned. If you do choose steel, be sure to get silver-brazed lugged steel construction. This is in my experience the best combination of strength AND ease of repair. Remember, just because a tube fails after 25k miles or so, a properly designed and built steel frame can be repaired and likely provide another 25k miles or so before again needing repair. In most cases, i have had my failed frames repaired and they again rode nearly as good as new, after 2 repairs though they seem to have lost much of the steel's life or resilience.

As an aside, I would recommend you change your lifting regimen to lunges and squats. Those inverted leg press machines do not provide a balanced workout and can be very hard on hip flexor and low back injuries. Proper weight training CAN improve explosiveness in sprinting but pedal stroke efficiency is the quickest way to improving speed.

Sorry for being so long winded, this is a topic for which I have endured alot over the years. Besides I'm stuck in a DoubleTree in Tulsa with 14 little 13 year olds and I figured if I get on this computer, the rest of the parents will have to put the kids to bed Best of luck to, glad to see some more big boy riders.
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Posted by Too Tall:

D##ds! F.Y.I. am riding a 64X64 with a 110 stem and lots of setback and 'zactly a fistful of seatpost showing. Maybe it's because I'm an even ape. The business of setting the HT size and TT height is still a tough calculation for me esp. with aesthetic considerations.

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Posted by William:

BIG MAC,

Long winded? Not at all. Very interesting reading. Thank you for taking the time to write up the post on your experiences with tubing and big bike building. It’s very much appreciated. Hey, your being holed up in Tulsa is our gain.

According to you and Too Tall, the Legend might be the way to go. At this point I don’t know what were talking in $$$ but I’m already wincing at what it might be.

I’ve often wondered why they didn’t use larger diameter tubing. Esp in the chain stays. AR commented that his ride had pretty beefy ones. The seat stays & pin also seem a bit thin for the size of the frame, esp with the amount of post that shows to accommodate my size. I hate to think what would happen if that let go…OUCH!! I’m running 180mm cranks that put me into the position on the saddle that I’m at.

You mentioned fracture of the cs tube. Did you get any warning signs other than a visible crack? Any “tinging”, or popping sounds during hard efforts?

Thanks again, this is exactly the type of info I was looking for.

Too Tall: “an even Ape”. What’s the difference between an even ape, and an odd ape?

Below is a pic from when I first received the bike. You can really see the amount of post showing and the tube choices used. BTW, check out the old school Aerospoke. You want a work out? Put that sucker on and go climb some hills.



William
Team Gorilla
(Where our rider’s daily caloric intake is equivalent to the GVW of a Mack Truck!!)
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Posted by TooTall:

When Big Mac suffers we benefit. Be strong my man be strong. walk away from the mini-bar.

Willm', My wingspan is exactly the same as my height (even ape rating). Your crit position is excellent. Yer freakin' thighs are scary.

I wish I could deal with that much drop. After racing season is kerput you should ride my bike and see what happens. I have a Fit stick so we can keep measures after all is said and done. A handful of stems, a few hills and a few espressos later.... If you decide to go for it I'll hook you up with Smiley, who lives about 1 mile from me and can work the frame details and shop sale. I'll build it if you want...lot's of loctite and (yes yes B.M.) Linseed oil too

Macman, my SLX Clark Kent is doomed? Say it ain't so. 30,000miles +. Good thing I only use it as a backup bike.

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Posted by Ahneida Ride:

Big Mac

Thanks for the distilled wisdom. I always enjoy your posts.
Thanks Prof.


Uncle Willliam,

As Big Mac suggested, I have the straight Beefed up Chain Stays.
I believe my frame has the largest coventional Ti tubes that Serotta
stocks. They do offer an even larger size, I believe on special order.
I did witness one such frame at the factory. Man, these are big tubes !
T**2 frame may be constructed of these.

63 still looks small.

Too bad the F1 is no longer available. But I ran in to the guy who
built em for Ben. He claims certain "items" in his shop !!!!! Don't tell anyone !
He said that the F1 is the only carbon fork that can pass steel
saftey standards. It was specifically designed to pass this test.

Legends are $$$$$. You should really demo T**2's bike and mine.
You cannot afford an error here.

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Posted by William:

>>>Quote:
As an aside, I would recommend you change your lifting regimen to lunges and squats. Those inverted leg press machines do not provide a balanced workout and can be very hard on hip flexor and low back injuries. Proper weight training CAN improve explosiveness in sprinting but pedal stroke efficiency is the quickest way to improving speed. >>>

I use lunges as well, Heiden style. The closest I get to squats is on the smith machine or hack squats. The leg press is just a component of my training, not the focus. I’m kind of a genetic freak when it comes to my lower body, I have lots of endurance and I can build strength and size quite easily. I have to be careful in how I approach training, I’m not body building here.
As far as pedal stroke efficiency, I’m always concentrating on being smooth on the bike, but even in the gym, I’m spinning before and after lifting to practice that smooth pedal stroke even when my legs are on fire. It’s also good for working out that good old lactic acid build up.

Thanks again BM!

William

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Posted by Smiley:

I just delivered a CSI for a kid that just graduated from an Ivy League school and was a rower on their varsity team. 6' 4 1/2" and 245 lbs and yearns to get back down to 225 lbs. This kid is all muscels and looks like he could be a tight end in the NFL. Anyway he purchased a 63 ST by 60 TT using a 13 cm stem BUT check this out his STA was 71.5 degree's using an off-set seat post. I set him up with a longer stem cause his current KOP is neutral but my guess is as he gets stronger he'll move back on the saddle rails and then he can shorten his stem so as not to lock out his elbows. I think his bar drop was 7-8 cm . His CSI was built with OS tubing and no complaints from him so far. Serotta has what it takes to build a BIG bike for guys that need it. I am sure if you get a chance to see TT bike you'll be sold on the whole deal. Best of luck big guy .

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Posted by Big Mac:
Smiley:

You bring up an interesting point regarding sizing issues for us folks at the sizing extremes. Body proportions often have larger variations than those of more diminutive size. The young lad you mention is 2 1/2" taller than I, that's over 6cm for the metrically challenged. Despite his larger size, he has been professionally fitted to a frame size that is 1cm smaller in TT and ST. We use identical ST angle for nearly identical KOPS position (I'm 1.2cm behind spindle center), I too use a setback seatpin (Ritchey Pro Road w/ 19mm setback) and relatively long 177.5 cranks. FWIW:Merckx (geos largely influenced by F. Masi and U. DeRosa) has long spec'd larger frames w/sub 72* STA. Why would I, over 6cm shorter, ride a larger frame if both are properly fitted? I would assume Smiley's client is far shorter limbed, relative to his size. I have rather long limbs, for example my pbh is just under 93cm and my wingspan (middle fingertip to middle fingertip measured with arms extended outward from sides, level w/shoulders) is 6'9" -- yah, wide shoulders and long arms in rather ape-like fashion, love them bananas don'tcha know .

TT:
You have an SLX frame with 30k that has never failed? whoa, you must be silky smooth and efficient on frames or very lightweight. I've had a couple SL/SLX frames over the years and they were toast within a year. Are you sure its not SP/SPX (same tubes, just thicker wall thickness/butting)?

BW:
When a chainstay fails, it sounds a bit like a spoke failing, of course if its steel that is. CF and aluminum would have a greater tendency to catastrophically fail w/o warning. This winter I did have a steel cs fail w/o apparent advance warning, it caused a wheel lockup and minor crash. Usually the audible warning noises cause one to stop and dismount before any such drama. In truth, it may have indeed offered an audible warning however it was a very cold morning in Tahoe causing me to wear a wool cap and Gore-tex/fleece hat that may have abated my hearing a bit.

Ride on!
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Posted by Smiley:

Mr Mac ,
Interesting doing BIG guy fits , the client has BIG feet yet short toes and he has a nice pedalling stroke , why do I say this cause he gets lenght in his saddle to pedal axel distance but he had NOT toe over lap or even came close . We measure cleat center to tip of shoe for a toe overlap confirmation. Also he has a long neck and maybe a tall profile head. Yes things do get really funky when your dealing with everything BIG. I always am amazed when I need to realx the Seat tube angle beyond 72 degree's and trust me we double and triple check this with a digital angle finder on 2 fits , the initial and final check out fit to make sure all is OK. Since the client was getting back into cycling I did not want to push 180 mm cranks on him so we stuck to 175's ( Shimano 9 speed guy , if he picked 10 speed it would have been 117.5's ).
On a separate note if you were an NFL scout you would think Tight End for this kid. Nice guy and I would be scared to call him to ask him to ride with us today cause he's probably very good by now.